BBC Radio Ulster Talkback 2/7/04
David Dunseath (presenter), Councillor Rogers and Councillor O'Broin (Belfast City Council), Richard West (co-editor of The Vacuum) |
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| Councillor Rogers: Good afternoon David, I'm absolutely appalled that the Belfast City Council, which I'm a member of, should give towards this publication. Whenever this was drawn to my attention a few days ago I was absolutely annoyed and I contacted our Arts Section to try and find were they aware now they admitted that they weren't. Now people who are Christians and those with the love of Jesus in their hearts and minds have been in contact with me, along with those with no interest in Christ or church whatsoever and they are saying to me, 'is that what our hard earned cash is being used for?' At a time when there are community groups and those in the economic sector are looking for money from the Council and we can't assist them. And whenever I open this publication and I see the Council logo and that we have made a contribution I'm absolutely appalled. Now you may not be aware, up to 10,000 of these copies are being circulated each month. It's a sixteen page publication, now I've a sense of humour but I don't think I could have any sense of humour over what I have read. We have got to make attempts to revoke this grant because in the past, I remember Miss Pedentaquid (sic) magazine, some things were in it that people didn't take too kindly to and immediately we had a meeting with the organisers and we laid it on the line that in future there'll be no more money given to the publication if we see dirt and filth in it. |
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| David Dunseath: Let me hear from Councillor O'Broin now. |
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| Councillor O'Broin: Well I have to say that I think this issue has been blown out of all proportion by a number of councillors and indeed by a very sensationalist headline in the Newsletter this morning. The situation is this: Belfast City Council funds up to about 80 Arts and cultural organisations in the city. The grant that we give to Factotum, the arts collective that produces The Vacuum, is a very small one, around £5,000 and it's for a variety of activities including art exhibitions, talks, screenings as well as this publication. It's clearly a fringe publication and there's no one in the Council that would argue this is to the mainstream of public taste although I have to say that having read the entire of the two editions that they've just brought out I don't think there's anything blasphemous in it. I think there are elements of the content which people with strong religious convictions wouldn't be happy with, there's no doubt about that at all. But the overwhelming majority of the publication is a series of essays on things like, for example, the iconography of religious worship, there are reviews of plays that deal with religious themes and there are a small number of satirical cultural columns which Jim has referred to. Jim is right, they're not to his taste or even to the taste of the vast majority of our constituents but the issue is this: one of the functions of art in any society is to try and push forward the boundries. The whole history of arts and culture in this city and in this country and indeed across the world has been in terms of challenging what's accessible in terms of taste and imagery etc. That's what The Vacuum is doing and we are either going to take a view that everyone has to conform to the mainstream of taste when it comes to cultural issues or we encourage and facillitate some things which are pushing back the boundries. Just a small point to finish on David. We are witnessing in the Grand Opera House the 100th centenary of the Playboy of the Western World, which is touring fom the Abbey Theatre, a play which is clearly satirises religious belief in Ireland at the turn of the 20th century. It caused riots and calls for censorship in 1904 when it was first produced on the grounds that it was blasphemous and here we are 100 years on, having the same discussion about an arts publication which I don't think is blasphemous. Although I'm perfectly willing to accept Councillor Rogers and others when they mention it. We need to create a space for the encouragement and development of art so long as it's within the objectives of the Council and this publication is. |
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| David Dunseath: I now have on the line Richard West, who is the editor of the said magazine, The Vacuum. You've heard two views here, you've heard Councillor Rogers and his concern, and he's voicing concerns of other councillors as well. What precisely have you to say, particularly to Councillor Rogers? |
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| Richard West: I must say I'm completely dismayed by Councillor Roger's approach. It's clear from his comments and from the comments in the newspapers that none of them have actually read the paper. The people who would be of the same religious persuasion as Mr. Rogers are in fact represented in the paper. I got an email from one of the people quoted in the paper saying it was a privelege to share with the readers of the paper. She's an assistant pastor. It sounds as if they want a scorched earth policy towards cultural discussion. |
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| David Dunseath: Let's hear from Councillor Rogers in the light of what you've just said, obviously you have read it Councillor Rogers. |
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| Councillor Rogers: Absolutely, I have read the two publications that were referred to in the Council last night and I won't accept what Mr. West is saying. I can tell you I don't like comments such as 'I peed in church'. Things like that. I don't have time to go into it in great detail, I want to come back to what Councillor O'Broin said. He talked about a small donation: five thousand pounds out of a very small arts budget is not a small amount of money, it's a considerable amount of money and we need to address this. How is this supposed to be done? I'm not asking for censorship but before any money is given out to groups who produce publications such as this we need to see exactly what's been put together. |
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| Richard West: May I come back on that please, he refers to an article called 'I peed in church'. This is the memories of someone going to church when they were an eight year old girl. If there is no room in our society for people to talk about their experiences of church when they were eight then that surely must be censorship. |
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| Councillor Rogers: The magazine, David, is full of absolute trash. I will leave no stone unturned to ensure that in future we have a proper criteria. We have it in the Council for support for sport, economic development, and the same thing must apply before finance is given out from our development department, arts section. |
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| David Dunseath: When you say it's 'complete trash' Councillor Rogers, could you be a bit more specific? |
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| Councillor Rogers: Well David, unfortunately, unfortunately, really there's not the time but the more you read through this the more you realise you'd have to be sick of mind to take the time to read this. It's a complete waste of ratepayers money. |
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| David Dunseath: Could you not give me an example? |
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| Councillor Rogers: I have people coming to me with publications that I would have to admit were of the highest standard. The Council cannot give them money. That's why councillors across the chamber, we're not just talking about Protestant, Unionist representatives, we're not just talking about Christian people. We're talking about non Christian people are absolutely offended by this publication. |
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| David Dunseath: It's very difficult and I'm not asking you to go through it all obviously, and I haven't seen it so I stand back from this. Eric Smyth says it 'encourages devil worshipping, it's blasphemous', Nelson McCausland says 'it's gratuitously offensive and crude'. Do you feel that it will encourage devil worshipping? |
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| Councillor Rogers: Well I wouldn't go that far, but I certainly feel it's crude and it's vulgar. There's no question about that. |
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| Dunseath: I'll give you another opportunity Richard and then we'll go to Councillor O'Broin. |
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| Richard West: Just to give you a flavour of some of the 'filth' we're talking about here: we have an essay on church architecture by a retired professor from the Art College; we have a four thousand word essay on the history of Christain imagery. This is not your average 'filth'. Having heard what Councillor Rogers has to say I think his seriousness is being called into doubt because it's obvious he hasn't looked at this at all. |
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| Councillor Rogers: I resent those comments very strongly. I have read both publications, 16 pages, from cover to cover and I stand by it, and I'm speaking for a large number of people. Mr. West is trying to defend something which he simply can't defend. |
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| David Dunseath: I want to come to Councillor O'Broin, who may feel that it's something of an intrusion to come in on this conversation. |
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| Councillor O'Broin: Let me say two things. If we took the attitude to public funding of arts that Councillor Rogers is suggesting then great works of literature such as Joyce's Ulysses, Sean O'Casey or JM Synge would never have been produced. We need to be able to encourage the development of art and culture in our society. I think that's what the City Council is doing. Here's the great irony in all this: until last night nobody except a small collection of artists in this city knew what The Vacuum was. Here we have the greatest publicist for this publication Jim Rogers, Eric Smyth and Nelson McCausland and everybody will want to read it. That's probably very good for The Vacuum but it makes no sense for councillors to manipulate this issue as Jim has done, bringing the name of arts organisations and the City Council into disrepute when they clearly don't understand it. |
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